The standard warning has been, you know, 15 will get you 20. But what if the minor in question looks older, and says he or she is older?
This is the premise for Denton lawyer Richard Gladden’s argument before a Texas appeals court – his client, he says, had consensual sex with someone who he thought was of legal age, and had no idea she was under age.
The challenge has caused many who are now on the registered sex offender list for the same reason. It’s also caught the eye of several rape crisis counselors, who believe that you should be able to tell a 13 year old from an 18 year old.
Gladden, however, says he’s prepared to go to the Supreme Court.
16 comments
This is kind of interesting… I’ve always wondered about what are known as “strict liability” crimes (in other words, crimes that don’t require any intent of breaking the law to be found guilty). There aren’t very many of these category of crimes (selling alcohol to a minor is the only other one that immediately comes to mind).
It has always struck me as somewhat unfair that a person could be sent to prison for a fair amount of their life (only to be branded a sex offender and condemned to life on the margins of society afterwards) for having consensual sex with someone who appeared to be of age and represented his or herself as being of age.
@Wylie: I would note that Texas law recognizes a defense to the charge of selling alcohol to a minor if the minor presents what appears to be a valid ID stating they are of legal age to make the purchase. That offense, therefore, is technically not a “strict liability” offense. I appreciate your comment nonetheless.
along with “15 will get you 20″, I also adhere to the “if there’s any doubt, don’t whip it out” mantra.
But short of asking for 2 forms of identification, what is a guy to do when the girl says she’s of age?
I read the story and while I am saddened for the guy whose life is now ruined because of a relationship that he and 11 other men had with a 13 year old, I admit that I am also a little skeptical about his mother’s version of the story and a little puzzled about how a 13 year old could have fooled all these men. (And, really, you were in love with a girl who slept with 11 of your other bunk mates….hmmm…. methinks you wanted an easy lay and heard she was willing.)
Now, as a rape victim (both as a child and an adult), I can say that I also understand why the Rape Crisis Counselors and survivors like me view this with a little trepidation. How would a court case like this go? Does the perpetrator now get to argue that she dressed a certain way, or walked a certain way? And, wouldn’t that be every perpetrator’s defense from that point on? (I mean, think back to the TV Show where when they get busted by the cameras start saying, she told me she was 18. ANd, then he busts out the chat where she clearly said she was 13.)
To me, something like how we have handled murder would be fair. There should be levels of a sex offender. Who is more dangerous: a 17 year old high school student who received naked pictures of his 15 year old girlfriend or the 40 year old who preys on elementary school kids. And, in my opinion, a girl who tells a grown man that she is 18, when in fact she is 13, should be held accountable for the lie. But, that is still a child, and having been around a lot of them, a lot of them lie. Impressing upon all young people the absolute seriousness of this kind of lie should be one of the rape crisis centers main goals.
I agree with Liz. The approach should be to change the offense to a less stigmatizing charge — and one that does not automatically place the offender permanently on the sex offender list.
1) You cant necessarily tell a 13yo from an 18 yo
2) the law has to make a differentiation between child molesters and those who engage in consensual acts
The rape crisis consolers are understandable upset but not using logic to make their case
The government ( that includes are #$% up schools) have taken the easy way out as they continue to NANNY STATE US with law after law rule after rule and that the courts are OVERLOADED AND ITS EAISER ( wrong, but easier) to just label everyone the same
Liz ,
you make great points about the long run when excuses are allowed
if the act was not consensual and his guilt proved THROW HIM IN JAIL 4EVER
but the presumption that he is guilty because the other 11 didnt know…why would they even ask if they are lowlifes??
Again, find a way to nail the guilty AND NAIL THEM!!!
from the story:
Pages from her Facebook and MySpace accounts claim she’s 18 or 19 years old and a student for the University of Texas at Austin. The military mom said she never suspected the girl her son was dating was actually only 13.
The rape Consolers are saying that even if the victim states they are 18+ it doesnt matter
That is “criminal” in itself
If that “logic” is to hold up , then if a “financial advisor” turns out not to be a financial adviser after ripping you off, the fact that they misrepresented themselves , according to the rape consolers, couldnt be held against them and so “too bad’ that you got taken
This 13yo wanted to be 18 and she acted as such WITHOUT coercion etc
Has anyone investigated this girls home life?
when one is acting out it usually is indicative of trouble at home
The kick in the head in all of this is it seems the girl knew the guys well enough to identify them to the court. But the boys didn’t seem to know the girl well enough to know her age. Talk about the little head leading the big head….
The other thing that is interesting in this from my perspective is the ones screaming the loudest is the mothers of these poor innocent boys. That fact suggests there is going to be a lot more of these kinds of problems in the future. Keep in mind we are raising more young men without a male father figure. What that seems to create is more abusers of females.
Yeah, I know. That doesn’t make sense, women raising abusers of women, until you see stories like this, mothers blaming the victims of male abuse for the abuse. But it has always been that way, the darling son was led astray by the hussey showing the ankle, drove the poor boy totally wild. We know men can’t be held responsible for what happens when they see ankles for gawd’s sake.
I see the laws as they are just fine thank you. Males need to assume some responsibility for what happens when they get involved sexually.
Teen girls who lie about their age and lure the spiders into their webs should also be “held responsible”. The young man gets arrested and the girl moves on to the next….and the next. Happens all the time.
Wake up folks! Today’s teen girls are not as innocent as mom and dad would like to believe.
My son is met a girl on face book she told him she was in college and they talked for several weeks, on phone txt and face book she even talked to his son. came over to the house i met her she did not look 15 are acted like a 15 year old are dress like on. He is now awaiting trail and a prison sentence. I have been looking on line and can not believe the case’s about the same thing girls lying about there age. My son is so upset he loved this girl.He would never hurt anyone he has two sons. He let his feelings get in the way. I wished i could find a support group to help us threw this and help change the law.
I am in the same situation with my son. I am searching around for a support group. It seems people are clueless! What a nightmare situation! The laws need to be changed and hopefully the laws will be changed to protect our society as a whole.
In the beginning of this God awful nightmare. All I can do is cry. I was crying and drinking all day and night, but since I have never been a drinker, it made me feel worse so I stopped that, and now just cry all the damn time. I can not get this out of my head.
My son has not been charged …YET! But I fear the worst because after all, this is Texas and we will kill a 14 yo if it suits the politics of the moment.
My son. aged 20 had consensual sex with a girl that told him she was 17. There were 2 other female friends in the house at the time, who thought it funny to walk in on them a couple of times. The girls all laughed and giggled & then they went to the show. Turns out that she was 15. As soon as he found out he told me and his dad. We have been freaked out ever since.
One of the girls friends told her mom and then the SHTF. Mom confronted girl and she swore nothing happened. We have texts where she says exactly that. Then the story turns to yes, they had sex but it was consensual, now the story floating about is he forced her.
I just can’t rely on the local sheriff’s detectives to do a through job. We do have parents that know the girl and do not know my son who are willing to jump to his defense if or when necessary. As of right now no one from law enforcement has talked to anyone other than the girl and her mother. This mother has threatened at least one of the other girls present that she will “drag” her into this if she does not stop talking to my son.
I do not know what to do. We have no pot of money to even think about getting an attorney. I have told my son that he is NOT to say anything to anyone, including and most importantly, law enforcement. His only response is to be “I want an attorney”, period.
I do not want him to be rude, but I know from past experience how law enforcement treats people. I would no longer even report a crime I saw happen, for fear they would try charge me with something because I saw it happen or was the last person to see/be with someone.
What are these young men supposed to do? Ask for ID? Yea, no one has fake ID. A birth certificate? Notarized documentation signed by the local chief of police with at least 4 certifiable over 21 adult witnesses? WHAT??? This has gotten completely out of control. Young girls are ruining young men’s lives at a staggering rate, out of fear of parents, regret, or just plain meanness, because they know they have all the power.
Many girls can pass for much older. I did. When I was 15 I lived in Missouri and worked in a bar serving drinks. The legal age was 21. Now it is even easier to pass for older.
I agree that no means no. But when does yes mean yes? Why is it ok for mom or authorities to brow beat a girl into saying what they want to hear because she is scared of her parents? All the responsibility falls on the guys.
My other son is 17, his gf is 15. He will turn 18 this year before she turns 16. Texas says legal consent is 17. Does that mean he can no longer see her? Would seem so since even if her parents are ok with their relationship, NO ONE can consent for someone to break the law so therefore, the way I read the law, he could be charged if they have sex or if she alleges they had sex.
Sorry this is so wordy and all over the place. I pray Mr. Richard Gladden is successful in his suit and if there is anything I can do to help in that endeavor, I would.
Hello to everyone! I am from Ohio was charged with very similar charges. To keep from going to jail and a lack of funds to continue on with a defense, I had no choice but to pled guilty. My life was ruined because of this, but I did not let it stop me. I can say that it did led to my drinking and becoming an alcoholic, depression, and which led to other poor decision.
Long story short an ex-friend and I went to a club in the downtown area, which held a college night for students. We met a group of females one said she was in college, another said she just had finished nursing school, and two went to a different college and had finished. We invited them back to my place, & rode in seperate cars ( my friend and I in one car and the ladies in another.). They bought their alcohol we purchased our alcohol. We partied all night. They went home and a few days later a couple of the ladies and my ex-buddy came back over. I had consental sex with the “nurse” who in the middle of the act started crying, I got off her asked what was wrong and she said nothing. So we went back to join the other. About a hour after the laides left the “nurse” ’s mother was at my door asking for her daugther. I told her they had left and she then told me she was pressing charges against me because she was only 14. Can you imagine how I felt? I met them at a club which served them alcohol and they had to be 18 to get in the club, so in my mind they were of legal age. The mother told me that she used her older sister college id to get in the club…… charges, court….. All of this happened before the sexual predator classification, so I do not have to register, but I have been ruled out of certain jobs because of it.
I hope that Attorney Gladden wins also for all of the young men / men who have had young girls lie to them.