I think it’s a far stretch to say that America could evolve into Nazi Germany by limiting the rights of gays in America. I am not even condoning the slaughter of all gays. That’s the last thing I would want. I want them, like I once did, to realize how they need Jesus Christ in their life, because He alone can bring them ultimate peace and life. They are sinners in need of grace just like I am. To be perfectly honest, I think many of them say that they are happy and free in how they live, but I think if you sat down and talked to them privately, they would tell you that they are miserable on the inside. That’s been my experience with people who look like they are happy on the outside, but really something is eating away at them in their heart, and it is due to a lack of Jesus Christ being their Lord and Savior.

Let me give you some quotes from the founders of this nation (and if you want the sources to these quotes I can post them if you want me to):

-Thomas Jefferson

“The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man.”

“The practice of morality being necessary for the well being of society, He [God] has taken care to impress its precepts so indelibly on our hearts that they shall not be effaced by the subtleties of our brain. We all agree in the obligation of the moral principles of Jesus and nowhere will they be found delivered in greater purity than in His discourses.”

“I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished anyone to be: sincerely attached to His doctrines in preference to all others.”

“I am a real Christian – that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ.”

-John Adams

“The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”

“The Holy Ghost carries on the whole Christian system in this earth. Not a baptism, not a marriage, not a sacrament can be administered but by the Holy Ghost. . . . There is no authority, civil or religious – there can be no legitimate government but what is administered by this Holy Ghost. There can be no salvation without it. All without it is rebellion and perdition, or in more orthodox words damnation.”

“The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity and humanity.”

“I have examined all religions, and the result is that the Bible is the best book in the world.”

-Benjamin Franklin

“As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and His religion as He left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see.”

“The body of Benjamin Franklin, printer, like the cover of an old book, its contents torn out and stripped of its lettering and guilding, lies here, food for worms. Yet the work itself shall not be lost; for it will, as he believed, appear once more in a new and more beatiful edition, corrected and amended by the Author.” (This is the eulogy he wrote for himself)

-James Madison

“I have sometimes thought there could not be a stronger testimony in favor of religion or against temporal enjoyments, even the most rational and manly, than for men who occupy the most honorable and gainful departments and [who] are rising in reputation and wealth, publicly to declare their unsatisfactoriness by becoming fervent advocates in the cause of Christ; and I wish you may give in your evidence in this way.”

-George Washington

“You do well to wish to learn our arts and ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are.”

“I now make it my earnest prayer that God would… most graciously be pleased to dispose us all to do justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves with that charity, humility, and pacific temper of the mind which were the characteristics of the Divine Author of our blessed religion.”

-Samuel Adams

“I conceive we cannot better express ourselves than by humbly supplicating the Supreme Ruler of the world . . . that the confusions that are and have been among the nations may be overruled by the promoting and speedily bringing in the holy and happy period when the kingdoms of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ may be everywhere established, and the people willingly bow to the scepter of Him who is the Prince of Peace.”

Here’s the real kicker from the U.S. House Judiciary Committee in 1854:

“Had the people, during the Revolution, had a suspicion of any attempt to war against Christianity, that Revolution would have been strangled in its cradle… In this age, there can be no substitute for Christianity… That was the religion of the founders of the republic and they expected it to remain the religion of their descendants.”

I could go on and on with various evidence supporting that Christianity was and still is a key ingredient to the United States of America. If you want to read further what other men said, check out this website:

http://www.wallbuilders.com/LIBissuesArticles.asp?id=8755

This is my last point and I’ll close with a quote from a letter between Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Rush, also a signer of the Dec. of Ind., concerning the 1st Amendment:

“The clause of the Constitution which, while it secured the freedom of the press, covered also the freedom of religion, had given to the clergy a very favorite hope of obtaining an establishment of a particular form of Christianity through the United States; and as every sect believes its own form the true one, every one perhaps hoped for his own, but especially the Episcopalians and Congregationalists. The returning good sense of our country threatens abortion to their hopes and they believe that any portion of power confided to me will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly.”

You see it talks of the establishment of a particular form of Christianity, not of just any religion in the world like Islam, Hinduism, etc. which are not rooted in Christianity. The people wanted to establish different denominations within Christianity. It wasn’t intended to open up America to all forms of religion. I believe the men who wrote all of these documents would know what their intentions were in writing these amendments, and by looking at this quote, it appears that it was limited to different forms of Christianity, i.e.- Baptist, Presbyterian, Episcopal, etc.

The way I see it according to (Article 6, section 3) of the Constitution it clearly says,”No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.”

So while, our founders created a vision of the United States based on slavery and we have evolved past that too.(Actually our founders were Freemasons which would preclude them from being Christian if you really want to get specific about it…). But I absolutely believe that Religious freedom is intended to be extended to all and that limiting any one’s right to practice the religion of their choice starts society on a very slippery path towards limiting the rights of us all. Thomas Jefferson said as much when he wrote,” A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.” That’s what happened in Nazi Germany. You want to see a government that used the bible to limit the rights of everyday citizens who happened to be gay? That’s what you’ll see if you click here:
http://andrejkoymasky.com/mem/holocaust/04/gay.jpg

Just ask Pastor Martin Niemoeller who wrote the following:

First they came for the Jews
And I did not speak out, for I was not a Jew.
When they came for the gypsies,
I did not speak out, for I am not a gypsy.
When they came for the gays,
I did not speak out, for I am not gay.
When they came for the Catholics,
I did not speak out, for I am not a Catholic.
Then they came for the Communists
and I did not speak out
because I was not a Communist.
Then they came for the trade unionists
and I did not speak out, because I was not a trade unionist.
And now they are coming up the stairs for me,
and there is no one left to speak out for me.”

Pastor Niemoeller’s poem is a poignant illustration of how dangerous it is to believe that the infringement of another’s human rights has little or no impact on our own, when in truth our rights are defined by how we define the rights of our fellow man. The Holocaust killed 6.5 million Jews, 250,000 gypsies, 63,000 homosexuals, 3 million Catholics, and 100,000 communists, and large numbers of trade unionists. How is it that everyday people like you and me allowed such a tiny group to grow to cause such mass slaughtering? The answer is that the Nazi’s were clever in clothing what would have normally been an obvious human rights violation by preying upon the latent prejudices of their nation. One of the earliest statements about the homosexual demographic was that “their existence is an attack on the moral fiber of our country.” This kind of rhetoric was highly strategic because it at once set their political party up as an authority defining what the country’s “moral fiber” was and because the first demographic they targeted was already one which the larger German citizenry already did not embrace, the warning that might have sounded off in the minds of Germany’s citizens was muffled by their own shared disdain for the Nazi’s first victims. This also allowed the Nazi Party to make themselves appear as the defender of the ever shrinking definition of “the true” German people.

And then there is always the arrogance of our claiming that our country’s founders came up with Democracy all on their own when in fact George Washington himself gave credit to the Iroquois Confederacy as one of their inspirations, (even though he sought to kill them later). That’s not a great part of our country’s history, but it is one we need to be aware of.

But back to your belief that our founders were all Christian who intended for religious freedom to be given only to different types of Christianity…please allow our visionary founders to speak for themselves as follows:

“Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth.” – Thomas Jefferson

“As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?” -John Adams (letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816)

“Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist.” – Benjamin Franklin

“I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church. Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all.” – Thomas Paine

“What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not.” – James Madison (”A Memorial and Remonstrance”, 1785)

“Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by the difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be depreciated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society.” – George Washington (letter to Edward Newenham, 1792)

Even Abraham Lincoln replied to those who cited the Bible in defense of slavery, “The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my profession.” and was later quoted by Joseph Lewis

So while Christianity is a beautiful religion that offers great wisdom and truth when spoken from the heart, let us not put words into the mouths of our nation’s founders. Instead, let us listen to their wisdom and remember that when we stand for the basic human rights of any individual within our society we are in fact standing for the rights of us all.

America was founded on Christian principles, by Christian men. Virtually all of the signers of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution were Christians. That fact cannot be argued. Religious freedom and separation of church and state were meant to protect people of different denominations within the Christian faith…It wasn’t meant to allow Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, etc.

East Dallas Eccentric…Paul and Peter were inferring that women in the church shouldn’t dress in a way or wear things that would draw unnecessary attention to themselves. Paul was telling Timothy that the women needed to dress in a modest way. It wasn’t about not wearing this or wearing that. He was using the example of gold to get his point across that women shouldn’t be focused on drawing attention to themselves or trying to dress better than the other women while they were worshiping in church.

Why is there such a drive from the Christina community to make their demographic repent? You don’t see the same drive towards demanding repentance from Ku Klux Klan members, murderers, or even the Enron execs who destroyed people’s means of living. And then here you have so many caring, respectful, intelligent, creative people who just want to be left alone to live their lives in the law abiding way they as adults see fit. I just don’t get it. Why spend so much energy towards trying to get someone to handle their own sexuality differently? What could possibly be more private and personal than that? And why should whole congregations of strangers who adhere to a religion have their say about it?

You don’t see Jews demanding that you get circumcised. You don’t see Hindu’s demanding that you not eat meat. You don’t see Buddhists raising a ruckus every time you swat a mosquito. They have their beliefs and they leave you alone to live your life with yours without any arrogant say about it. Have you even stopped to think that some of these gay people might be Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Zoroastrian, Sikh, Wiccan, or even follow a Gnostic type of Christianity, etc? I’ve met gay people of all those traditions. So why assume your religion should demand they repent based on your interpretation of something they might not even believe in? And if they are Christian, then whose to say they interpret the bible, (even if it is the same one you read – it could be Baptist, Catholic, Episcopalian, Russian orthodox, Greek Orthodox, etc.), the way you do?

I have nothing but the highest respect for Christians and their beliefs, but why, when this country was founded on religious freedom as one of its major tenets, should we ever push any one of our religions’ beliefs in the face of another peaceful person? I just don’t get it.

http://perezhilton.com/2008-11-10-a-very-important-message-from-26

http://www.godtube.com/view_video.php?viewkey=069057619b039bf733e7

Your words reveal that you are a wonderful father. Thank you for that. My own father had to go through a lot of hell when he adopted me. The first time my parents held a luncheon to “present” me to their friends, they said half the people got up and left to protest my parents’ choice of adopting a genetically Hispanic child into a white family. But my parents never told me this story until long after I was an adult and living on my own. I think about all the times dad pushed my baby carriage around Turtle Creek and how many times he took me to play tennis with him at the Brookhollow Country Club. Sure, I received a lot of flack about my race when I was little, but then by the time I was a teenager and Hispanics yelled at me for dating white guys (in the middle of North Park Mall!), my skin was pretty tough. But every time I needed that kind of strength, I would think about my parents and their choices and their love. There used to be a time when the fundamentalists used to use the bible to condemn interracial marriage. Today my husband and I can walk hand in hand because people learned to open their heart’s capacity to respect love between two people. It’s as simple as that. And there will come a day when the general public grows weary of hearing the fundamentalists used to use the bible to condemn relationships between two adults regardless of race, sexual orientation, religion, ethnicity, culture.

We, the younger generation already regard that kind of hatred as archaic. We also find a person’s sexual orientation to be one part of who he/she is, not the whole definition of the person. (Think of “Guess Who’s Coming to Dinner” where Sidney Poitier’s character tells his father: You think of yourself as a black man. I think of myself as a man”. That’s how most 30 somethings and younger think of gay people too, as men and women. Their sexual orientiation is what they do in THEIR private time with those they love, gay or straight or bi. The end.) So tell your son to be patient, we as a people continually outgrow bigotry’s use of the bible as its talking point. They used it to defend slavery. They used it to deny women the right to vote. They used it to deny interracial marriage. And yes, now they are using it to argue that complete strangers should have a say on what occurs between to consenting adults in love with each other.

At the end of the day, it will be the Christians who exert more energy promoting peace, understanding, feeding the hungry, standing up for the downtrodden, etc…those who follow Christ’s teaching of the Good Samaritan and Widow’s Mite, who will emulate his way much more than those who waste their time espousing hatred who will be the ones who have the greatest positive impact on the human family we are all responsible for. It’s simply up to us as individuals to decide what kind of impact we want to be responsible for causing in the world around us: hatred or understanding. Since many of you in this discussion are christian, I’ll end with the following:

Lord, make me an instrument of Thy peace;
where there is hatred, let me sow love;
where there is injury, pardon;
where there is doubt, faith;
where there is despair, hope;
where there is darkness, light;
and where there is sadness, joy.
O Divine Master,
grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console;
to be understood, as to understand;
to be loved, as to love;
for it is in giving that we receive,
it is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
and it is in dying that we are born to Eternal Life.
Amen

We need only to ask ourselves what we can do to be understanding and to promote peace, etc. I don’t think that would include ostricizsing and attacking our gay brothers and sisters.