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First Baptist Not Okay With Gay

In the wake of the election, those looking for a little activist action might want to show up at 10 AM this Sunday at First Baptist downtown, where a crowd will be assembled across the street to protest the sign at left. The friend who forwarded this to me says they are asking demonstrators to bring signs and their singing voices, for spirited choruses of “Jesus Loves Me.” Here‘s what the Dallas Voice has posted about the controversy.

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  • john S. Shore

    Dear Harvey,

    I will sleep well tonight knowing that there IS hope and parents love and care for their gay child. Thank you for reminding us all of what is important in life.

  • Bethany

    I think it’s interesting to compare Jeffress’ sermon with Dr. Fiedler’s over at the First United Methodist Church.

    Sunday, Fiedler talked about respecting each other, and how Jesus’ mandate to love each other was also a mandate to be respectful of each other.

    He then talked about how the First Baptist Church does many things well, and he is appreciative of that.

    However, the crowd outside the church, protesting, was to many people an “ugly scene.” But that, he said, “was indicative of an ugly sentiment inside.”

    Regardless of how you feel about gay people, putting that on a marquee was not a sign of respect, ergo – it flew in the face of the basis of Jesus’ teachings.

  • Silent No More

    History repeats itself… this pastor did the same thing in Wichita Falls, came to Dallas, was silent two years then decided to shake things up only for his personal benefit. What better way to get the justly people who sit in judgement to give more to their mission / church? Times are tough for churches so he decides to dust off the old sermons and beat his homo hate drum. Let the one without sin cast the first stone… they have plenty at this church. If they are Christians then they should know that we are all sinners and the closet doors have been opened. How many people remember, ” Hate is not a Family Value?”

  • Daniel

    Dear Exalted Preacher Man (not a buck-toothed sissy, like the Methodist fellow!),

    What does God say about three-ways? MFF, of course. I need to know, like, ASAP.

    Yours in Christ,

  • Exalted Preacher Man

    Dear Daniel:

    What are you, some kind of Mormon? If so, that’s a cult. You’ll go to hell. Straight there.

    Now, if you’ll excuse me, I have something large in my eye.


    Exalted Preacher Man

  • KWJ

    I haven’t had the time to read every single post on here, but let me encourage each of you to listen to his sermon from yesterday morning so you can hear where he and our church stands on this issue. As far as the title to his sermon, “Gay Is Not O.K.,” most, if not all, members of FBC know that he usually comes up with some sort of eye-catching title for his sermons. So the title of yesterdays sermon really did not surprise me at all. You can look at the bulletin each week and see that he will have a “shock value” title for the sermon. In any case, I think our church is welcoming of gay people and we do love them. While we do not agree with their choice of lifestyle, we do want them to experience the saving grace of Jesus Christ and the eternal life that God has give us through His Son. In the same way, we welcome and unconditionally love alcoholics, drug users, adulterers, etc., but we disagree with their choice of lifestyle as well. As I was leaving church yesterday morning, there were 3-4 men at our church who were bringing out hot coffee to the protesters in an effort to show, as best we could, how we do love them. If we hated gays, we would have started a yelling match or verbally attacked the crowd. Being gay could be because there is some sort of chemical imbalance, but just like depressed people have chemical imbalances, they have to make a choice to overcome that. I truly believe that God didn’t create men and women to have a relationship with someone of the same sex, because He designed and created marriage, sex, etc. to be between one man and one woman because He knew that was the best way for a relationship/marriage to operate. It has worked for thousands of years, so I don’t see any need for there to be a change. Now as far as the church picking and choosing different things to follow in the Bible, that is simply not true. While there are many things written in the Old Testament that Christians do not adhere to (such as things mentioned in Leviticus), that is because the Old Testament law does not apply anymore. Christians are under the new law of grace that came through Jesus Christ. Jesus mentioned all but one of the 10 Commandments during His life, so those things are to be followed specifically because He preached about those matters. Some say that Jesus never specifically condemned homosexuality, but in fact because the Bible is inspired by God and Jesus and the Holy Spirit are equal to God, Christians believe that the passage in Romans 1:26-27, for example, is just the same as Jesus saying it Himself. The bottom line is that Christians are to “hate the sin and love the sinner,” and that should be true for every sin (cussing, lusting, coveting, etc.). I do believe Christians can sometimes place more of an emphasis on preaching against the gay lifestyle, when we should be just as focused on preaching against sex before marriage, adultery, etc. That gets back to Christians holding each other accountable and calling each other our when another brother or sister in Christ is habitually sinning and disobeying God’s Word. Sin is sin in God’s eyes, but thankfully, He has provided a way for us to have forgiveness if we place our faith and trust in Jesus Christ and believe that His death and resurrection paid the price for my sin. He absorbed all of God’s wrath so that I can have eternal life. It’s easy to become accepting and tolerant of people, because that is what our culture says to do. But Jesus said that the way to eternal life is narrow, few will enter His Kingdom (Matthew 7:13-14), and that He is “the Way, Truth, and Life and that no one comes to the Father except through Him” (John 14:6-7). Just because culture changes doesn’t mean that the Jesus and what the Bible teaches are going to change. For anyone who doubts where our church stands on this issue, I challenge you to come the next couple of weeks and really listen to Dr. Jeffress’ sermon and then make your judgment. As a Christian, I do my best, through the power of the Holy Spirit, to love everyone that I’m around, including gay people, but I do stand by the Word of God and His Word is true and has stood the test of time.

  • Bethany

    Eye-catching title? Again, I point to Jesus’ mandate – the one he says is most important – that says we must love each other. It is the greatest command, he says.

    He used people’s fear to stir up attention for the church by putting that title on the sign. Regardless of what the sermon said, the title does not jibe with Jesus’ command to love – or respect – each other.

  • Harvey Lacey

    Bethany, where is that no-paragraph swatter?

    We need it now!!!!

  • Peaches and Cream

    It has been my life experience to note that no few persons (and no few preachers) who condemn homosexuality the loudest and strongest ultimately are revealed to have had something to hide. Like Ted Haggard?

  • Annie

    Harvey – LOL!

    KWJ –

    I am not an alcoholic, a drug- user, an adulterer, nor do I have a chemical imbalance. In fact, the most miserable I was in my life was when I kept trying to deny who I really am. Prayer did not work, nor did dating men, nor did therapy. What finally made me happy was when I quit beating myself up and accepted who I am.

    I am GAY. Gay, Gay Gay. And not going away. And have no desire to visit a church with a huge “no gays welcome” sign out front.

    Have you read the rest of that passage in Romans?:

    28And just as they did not see fit to acknowledge God any longer, God gave them over to a depraved mind, to do those things which are not proper,

    29being filled with all unrighteousness, wickedness, greed, evil; full of envy, murder, strife, deceit, malice; they are gossips,

    30slanderers, haters of God, insolent, arrogant, boastful, inventors of evil, disobedient to parents,

    31without understanding, untrustworthy, unloving, unmerciful;

    32and although they know the ordinance of God, that those who practice such things are worthy of death,

    Why is it that Christians keep singling out only the gay part of this passage? Why are you not also going after the people who habitually practice greed, envy, gossip, deceit, slander, boatfulness, disobey their parents. After all, God, according to the Bible, says those people are “worthy of death.”

    Guess your church would be pretty empty if you went after everyone mentioned in that passage with as much zeal as you go after the gay people. Instead of pointing a finger at the gay people, why don’t all you people read the rest of that passage and point a few fingers at yourselves?

    “hate the sin and love the sinner,” – BARF!!! Big clue, the minute I hear this come out of a Christian’s mouth, I know I’m not going to be feeling the love.

    “His Word is true and has stood the test of time.” – But not the Old Testament, the part you say you’ve “picked and choosed” to ignore. And not that one commandment (which one is that anyway?) that Jesus didn’t mention. And I guess not the rest of Romans 1, since the only people that ever get vilified from it are the gay people. Oh, and I didn’t see a single woman going into that church with her head covered, as Paul instructed. And I imagine women talk and teach classes in there, even though Paul said they aren’t supposed to. And gosh, I didn’t see anyone bringing their slaves into the sanctuary. Everytime a Christian says they don’t pick and choose from the Bible, they are lying, which according to you is a sin equal to homosexuality. Or is lying the one commandment Jesus didn’t mention?

    “It has worked for thousands of years, so I don’t see any need for there to be a change. ” – Hmmm – are you willing to give up your car, computer, electricity, and much of life as you know it? After all, the world worked for thousands of years without them. Go find some WD40 – I have a feeling you squeak when you walk.

    I’d like to see a big sign out front next week: “Why Jeffres is a Big Ol’ Hypocrite and Why it Isn’t Okay.”

  • Rawlins Gilliland

    Dave Abe: Congrats. The last time I saw anything that long, it was that wall in China! Dude you single-handedly turned this thread into a serape. Or as the coy cow might say to the dairy farmer, “Talk about (Harvey) Milk-ing it!”

    On a more sober note, it’s a little hard for me to fathom how, in 2008,… after countless centuries…, people still argue about and feel threatened by…homosexuality.

    Silly me; by now, I thought being gay would be about as controversial as a bottle of Prell shampoo. Or if so inclined, beef jerky. (Okay, Nancy Nichols: Sue Pree nail polish remover and Prosciutto.) As Oprah was heard saying to her trainer when pointing to her hips: “Can we lighten up here?”

  • Bethany

    At least he used paragraph breaks.

  • Daniel

    Prell shampoo is condemned by G-D. Even saying those words gets G-D hopping mad — especially if he hasn’t had his breakfast yet, he’ll fly into a full-bore red-faced harrangue, sweeping the contents of the nearest table to the floor for emphasis. G-D is a very irascible man!

  • KWJ

    Dave Abe…We are under grace and not the law anymore. Romans 6:14 says, “For sin shall not be your master, because you are not under law, but under grace.” The law in the Old Testament was instituted by God for the Jews to follow. I’m stating what Paul wrote in Romans and I’m not trying to pick and choose what favors me at the moment. I’m not perfect and I fail at many of the things the Bible commands Christians to do, but there is grace and forgiveness and through the process of sanctification, I become more like Christ and my desires become His desires and with time He gives me the ability to be more obedient to His commands and my will comes into alignment with His will. I don’t completely disregard all of God’s laws as you state I do, but again, Christians are under the New Covenant (grace and salvation through Christ) and not the Old Covenant (the law, animal sacrifices to God, etc.).

    Jesus, God, and the Holy Spirit are three in one, i.e.- the Trinity. My point there was that although Jesus never specifically taught against homosexuality, He did divinely inspire the words that Paul wrote in Romans 1:26-27. I do realize that following those verses are many other sins that each Christian is guilty of at some point (maybe not all but some), but if the person repents of those sins, turns to Christ in faith, and submits to His Lordship, then there is salvation and eternal life. But the big issue is that if anyone, myself included, continues to commit/live in that sin and approves of others who continually live a life of sin, then it will lead to eternal death.

    Do you really believe that God didn’t create marriage? Please explain Genesis 2:18-24 which states,

    “The LORD God said, “It is not good for the man to be alone. I will make a helper suitable for him.” Now the LORD God had formed out of the ground all the beasts of the field and all the birds of the air. He brought them to the man to see what he would name them; and whatever the man called each living creature, that was its name. So the man gave names to all the livestock, the birds of the air and all the beasts of the field. But for Adam no suitable helper was found. So the LORD God caused the man to fall into a deep sleep; and while he was sleeping, he took one of the man’s ribs and closed up the place with flesh. Then the LORD God made a woman from the rib he had taken out of the man, and he brought her to the man. The man said,

    “This is now bone of my bones
    and flesh of my flesh;
    she shall be called ‘woman,’
    for she was taken out of man.”

    For this reason a man will leave his father and mother and be united to his wife, and they will become one flesh.

    I think that spells it out pretty clearly. Sure it’s not exactly like the weddings we have today but I think most would agree that God designed and created marriage and the “union” you refer to is the same as a marriage. A husband and wife help each other and when someone gets married, they leave their parents and become one with their spouse. This ties into the gay issue because God would have created men to be with men and women to be with women if that was the best plan, but he didn’t and it just doesn’t work. Two men or two women cannot “be fruitful and multiply.”

    Let me close by saying that I’ve learned to be sensitive and loving toward gay people (primarily because of a homosexual that I work with), just like I am to other people who struggle with other sins. Christ commanded us to love Him and love others, but sometimes loving someone means that you have to do the hard thing and lovingly confront them about their sin and disobedience. If I’m not walking with Christ, then I want a Christian brother/sister to confront me about it, even if it’s really not what I want to hear. You don’t love someone by tolerating sin.

  • Mary Ann Thompson-Frenk


    Your words reveal that you are a wonderful father. Thank you for that. My own father had to go through a lot of hell when he adopted me. The first time my parents held a luncheon to “present” me to their friends, they said half the people got up and left to protest my parents’ choice of adopting a genetically Hispanic child into a white family. But my parents never told me this story until long after I was an adult and living on my own. I think about all the times dad pushed my baby carriage around Turtle Creek and how many times he took me to play tennis with him at the Brookhollow Country Club. Sure, I received a lot of flack about my race when I was little, but then by the time I was a teenager and Hispanics yelled at me for dating white guys (in the middle of North Park Mall!), my skin was pretty tough. But every time I needed that kind of strength, I would think about my parents and their choices and their love. There used to be a time when the fundamentalists used to use the bible to condemn interracial marriage. Today my husband and I can walk hand in hand because people learned to open their heart’s capacity to respect love between two people. It’s as simple as that. And there will come a day when the general public grows weary of hearing the fundamentalists used to use the bible to condemn relationships between two adults regardless of race, sexual orientation, religion, ethnicity, culture.

    We, the younger generation already regard that kind of hatred as archaic. We also find a person’s sexual orientation to be one part of who he/she is, not the whole definition of the person. (Think of “Guess Who’s Coming to Dinner” where Sidney Poitier’s character tells his father: You think of yourself as a black man. I think of myself as a man”. That’s how most 30 somethings and younger think of gay people too, as men and women. Their sexual orientiation is what they do in THEIR private time with those they love, gay or straight or bi. The end.) So tell your son to be patient, we as a people continually outgrow bigotry’s use of the bible as its talking point. They used it to defend slavery. They used it to deny women the right to vote. They used it to deny interracial marriage. And yes, now they are using it to argue that complete strangers should have a say on what occurs between to consenting adults in love with each other.

    At the end of the day, it will be the Christians who exert more energy promoting peace, understanding, feeding the hungry, standing up for the downtrodden, etc…those who follow Christ’s teaching of the Good Samaritan and Widow’s Mite, who will emulate his way much more than those who waste their time espousing hatred who will be the ones who have the greatest positive impact on the human family we are all responsible for. It’s simply up to us as individuals to decide what kind of impact we want to be responsible for causing in the world around us: hatred or understanding. Since many of you in this discussion are christian, I’ll end with the following:

    Lord, make me an instrument of Thy peace;
    where there is hatred, let me sow love;
    where there is injury, pardon;
    where there is doubt, faith;
    where there is despair, hope;
    where there is darkness, light;
    and where there is sadness, joy.
    O Divine Master,
    grant that I may not so much seek to be consoled as to console;
    to be understood, as to understand;
    to be loved, as to love;
    for it is in giving that we receive,
    it is in pardoning that we are pardoned,
    and it is in dying that we are born to Eternal Life.

    We need only to ask ourselves what we can do to be understanding and to promote peace, etc. I don’t think that would include ostricizsing and attacking our gay brothers and sisters.

  • KWJ

    I think this video is pretty amazing and shows that being gay is something that God can change and that it is a sin that someone can be delivered from just like any other sin of adultery, idolatry, pride, greed, etc. I truly believe God loves gay people and He desires for them to turn to Him in repentance just like He would any other sinner. Take the time to watch this:

  • Annie

    Wow, I’m happy the way I am. I’m sure glad I don’t believe the Bible.

  • Annie
  • Mary Ann Thompson-Frenk

    KWJ – Why is their such an obsession with wanting to make gay people change and be different than they are based on your (and other Christians’) personal religious beliefs? I know so many incredible gay people who are living examples of what it means to be of service to others, loving of their friends and family, who dedicate their lives towards making our world a better place in which to live. I think it is a bit arrogant for any of us as a complete stranger to tell another complete stranger that they should repent and change when we hardly even know them.

    Why is there such a drive from the Christina community to make their demographic repent? You don’t see the same drive towards demanding repentance from Ku Klux Klan members, murderers, or even the Enron execs who destroyed people’s means of living. And then here you have so many caring, respectful, intelligent, creative people who just want to be left alone to live their lives in the law abiding way they as adults see fit. I just don’t get it. Why spend so much energy towards trying to get someone to handle their own sexuality differently? What could possibly be more private and personal than that? And why should whole congregations of strangers who adhere to a religion have their say about it?

    You don’t see Jews demanding that you get circumcised. You don’t see Hindu’s demanding that you not eat meat. You don’t see Buddhists raising a ruckus every time you swat a mosquito. They have their beliefs and they leave you alone to live your life with yours without any arrogant say about it. Have you even stopped to think that some of these gay people might be Jewish, Muslim, Buddhist, Hindu, Zoroastrian, Sikh, Wiccan, or even follow a Gnostic type of Christianity, etc? I’ve met gay people of all those traditions. So why assume your religion should demand they repent based on your interpretation of something they might not even believe in? And if they are Christian, then whose to say they interpret the bible, (even if it is the same one you read — it could be Baptist, Catholic, Episcopalian, Russian orthodox, Greek Orthodox, etc.), the way you do?

    I have nothing but the highest respect for Christians and their beliefs, but why, when this country was founded on religious freedom as one of its major tenets, should we ever push any one of our religions’ beliefs in the face of another peaceful person? I just don’t get it.

  • East Dallas Eccentric

    KWJ – what is your church’s position on women wearing gold jewelry?

  • KWJ

    Mary Ann…I agree that there can be an overemphasis on Christians condemning gays, when in fact Christians should be holding people accountable who commit adultery, murder, and any other sin mentioned in the Bible. If I’m habitually committing a sin, then I want a fellow believer to call me out on it so I can repent of that sin and have a restored relationship with Christ. Just like a person who has an on-going adulterous relationship is disobeying God’s command in the Bible, a gay person who continues to live that kind of lifestyle is living in disobedience to God. I think born-again, regenerate Christians are more outspoken about our beliefs because we know that our faith and belief in Jesus Christ is the only way to gain eternal life. That may sound arrogant, but it is true and I’m saying this out of love and a desire for everyone to have a personal relationship with Christ and know beyond a shadow of a doubt that they can have true eternal life. John 14:6 says, “I am the way and the truth and the life. No one comes to the Father except through me.” The way to eternal life is narrow, not broad and Christians want everyone to know that. Sure there are gay people who are loving, servants, and make the world a better place, but is that what Christ calls us to do? There are plenty of nice, loving people who make a great impact on the world, but do they know Christ and does Christ know them? That is life’s most important question.

    America was founded on Christian principles, by Christian men. Virtually all of the signers of the Declaration of Independence and the Constitution were Christians. That fact cannot be argued. Religious freedom and separation of church and state were meant to protect people of different denominations within the Christian faith…It wasn’t meant to allow Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, etc.

    East Dallas Eccentric…Paul and Peter were inferring that women in the church shouldn’t dress in a way or wear things that would draw unnecessary attention to themselves. Paul was telling Timothy that the women needed to dress in a modest way. It wasn’t about not wearing this or wearing that. He was using the example of gold to get his point across that women shouldn’t be focused on drawing attention to themselves or trying to dress better than the other women while they were worshiping in church.

  • KWJ
  • Mary Ann Thompson-Frenk

    KWJ – Wow. You and I are just going to have to agree to disagree. (Rawlins, if you thought that last e-mail was long, I’m gonna warn you that you’re about to read “War & Peace” here! Ha! Ha!)

    The way I see it according to (Article 6, section 3) of the Constitution it clearly says,”No religious test shall ever be required as a qualification to any office or public trust under the United States.”

    So while, our founders created a vision of the United States based on slavery and we have evolved past that too.(Actually our founders were Freemasons which would preclude them from being Christian if you really want to get specific about it…). But I absolutely believe that Religious freedom is intended to be extended to all and that limiting any one’s right to practice the religion of their choice starts society on a very slippery path towards limiting the rights of us all. Thomas Jefferson said as much when he wrote,” A democracy is nothing more than mob rule, where fifty-one percent of the people may take away the rights of the other forty-nine.” That’s what happened in Nazi Germany. You want to see a government that used the bible to limit the rights of everyday citizens who happened to be gay? That’s what you’ll see if you click here:

    Just ask Pastor Martin Niemoeller who wrote the following:

    First they came for the Jews
    And I did not speak out, for I was not a Jew.
    When they came for the gypsies,
    I did not speak out, for I am not a gypsy.
    When they came for the gays,
    I did not speak out, for I am not gay.
    When they came for the Catholics,
    I did not speak out, for I am not a Catholic.
    Then they came for the Communists
    and I did not speak out
    because I was not a Communist.
    Then they came for the trade unionists
    and I did not speak out, because I was not a trade unionist.
    And now they are coming up the stairs for me,
    and there is no one left to speak out for me.”

    Pastor Niemoeller’s poem is a poignant illustration of how dangerous it is to believe that the infringement of another’s human rights has little or no impact on our own, when in truth our rights are defined by how we define the rights of our fellow man. The Holocaust killed 6.5 million Jews, 250,000 gypsies, 63,000 homosexuals, 3 million Catholics, and 100,000 communists, and large numbers of trade unionists. How is it that everyday people like you and me allowed such a tiny group to grow to cause such mass slaughtering? The answer is that the Nazi’s were clever in clothing what would have normally been an obvious human rights violation by preying upon the latent prejudices of their nation. One of the earliest statements about the homosexual demographic was that “their existence is an attack on the moral fiber of our country.” This kind of rhetoric was highly strategic because it at once set their political party up as an authority defining what the country’s “moral fiber” was and because the first demographic they targeted was already one which the larger German citizenry already did not embrace, the warning that might have sounded off in the minds of Germany’s citizens was muffled by their own shared disdain for the Nazi’s first victims. This also allowed the Nazi Party to make themselves appear as the defender of the ever shrinking definition of “the true” German people.

    And then there is always the arrogance of our claiming that our country’s founders came up with Democracy all on their own when in fact George Washington himself gave credit to the Iroquois Confederacy as one of their inspirations, (even though he sought to kill them later). That’s not a great part of our country’s history, but it is one we need to be aware of.

    But back to your belief that our founders were all Christian who intended for religious freedom to be given only to different types of Christianity…please allow our visionary founders to speak for themselves as follows:

    “Millions of innocent men, women and children, since the introduction of Christianity, have been burnt, tortured, fined, imprisoned; yet we have not advanced an inch towards uniformity. What has been the effect of coercion? To make one half the world fools, and the other half hypocrites. To support roguery and error all over the earth.” – Thomas Jefferson

    “As I understand the Christian religion, it was, and is, a revelation. But how has it happened that millions of fables, tales, legends, have been blended with both Jewish and Christian revelation that have made them the most bloody religion that ever existed?” -John Adams (letter to F.A. Van der Kamp, Dec. 27, 1816)

    “Some books against Deism fell into my hands. . . It happened that they wrought an effect on my quite contrary to what was intended by them; for the arguments of the Deists, which were quoted to be refuted, appeared to me much stronger than the refutations; in short, I soon became a thorough Deist.” – Benjamin Franklin

    “I do not believe in the creed professed by the Jewish Church, by the Roman Church, by the Greek Church, by the Turkish Church, by the Protestant Church, nor by any Church that I know of. My own mind is my own Church. Each of those churches accuse the other of unbelief; and for my own part, I disbelieve them all.” – Thomas Paine

    “What influence, in fact, have ecclesiastical establishments had on society? In some instances they have been seen to erect a spiritual tyranny on the ruins of the civil authority; on many instances they have been seen upholding the thrones of political tyranny; in no instance have they been the guardians of the liberties of the people. Rulers who wish to subvert the public liberty may have found an established clergy convenient auxiliaries. A just government, instituted to secure and perpetuate it, needs them not.” – James Madison (“A Memorial and Remonstrance”, 1785)

    “Religious controversies are always productive of more acrimony and irreconcilable hatreds than those which spring from any other cause. Of all the animosities which have existed among mankind, those which are caused by the difference of sentiments in religion appear to be the most inveterate and distressing, and ought most to be depreciated. I was in hopes that the enlightened and liberal policy, which has marked the present age, would at least have reconciled Christians of every denomination so far that we should never again see the religious disputes carried to such a pitch as to endanger the peace of society.” – George Washington (letter to Edward Newenham, 1792)

    Even Abraham Lincoln replied to those who cited the Bible in defense of slavery, “The Bible is not my book, nor Christianity my profession.” and was later quoted by Joseph Lewis

    So while Christianity is a beautiful religion that offers great wisdom and truth when spoken from the heart, let us not put words into the mouths of our nation’s founders. Instead, let us listen to their wisdom and remember that when we stand for the basic human rights of any individual within our society we are in fact standing for the rights of us all.

  • KWJ

    Mary Ann…I think we are going to have to “agree to disagree.” First of all, I would disagree with the fact that just because our founding fathers were Freemasons doesn’t mean they were not devout Christians. There have been numerous Freemasons who were Christians through the years, including my great-grandfather. Though Freemasons are not limited to one religion, I don’t think you can say that just because the founding fathers were Freemasons means that they were not Christians.

    I think it’s a far stretch to say that America could evolve into Nazi Germany by limiting the rights of gays in America. I am not even condoning the slaughter of all gays. That’s the last thing I would want. I want them, like I once did, to realize how they need Jesus Christ in their life, because He alone can bring them ultimate peace and life. They are sinners in need of grace just like I am. To be perfectly honest, I think many of them say that they are happy and free in how they live, but I think if you sat down and talked to them privately, they would tell you that they are miserable on the inside. That’s been my experience with people who look like they are happy on the outside, but really something is eating away at them in their heart, and it is due to a lack of Jesus Christ being their Lord and Savior.

    Let me give you some quotes from the founders of this nation (and if you want the sources to these quotes I can post them if you want me to):

    -Thomas Jefferson

    “The doctrines of Jesus are simple, and tend all to the happiness of man.”

    “The practice of morality being necessary for the well being of society, He [God] has taken care to impress its precepts so indelibly on our hearts that they shall not be effaced by the subtleties of our brain. We all agree in the obligation of the moral principles of Jesus and nowhere will they be found delivered in greater purity than in His discourses.”

    “I am a Christian in the only sense in which He wished anyone to be: sincerely attached to His doctrines in preference to all others.”

    “I am a real Christian — that is to say, a disciple of the doctrines of Jesus Christ.”

    -John Adams

    “The general principles on which the fathers achieved independence were the general principles of Christianity. I will avow that I then believed, and now believe, that those general principles of Christianity are as eternal and immutable as the existence and attributes of God.”

    “The Holy Ghost carries on the whole Christian system in this earth. Not a baptism, not a marriage, not a sacrament can be administered but by the Holy Ghost. . . . There is no authority, civil or religious — there can be no legitimate government but what is administered by this Holy Ghost. There can be no salvation without it. All without it is rebellion and perdition, or in more orthodox words damnation.”

    “The Christian religion is, above all the religions that ever prevailed or existed in ancient or modern times, the religion of wisdom, virtue, equity and humanity.”

    “I have examined all religions, and the result is that the Bible is the best book in the world.”

    -Benjamin Franklin

    “As to Jesus of Nazareth, my opinion of whom you particularly desire, I think the system of morals and His religion as He left them to us, the best the world ever saw or is likely to see.”

    “The body of Benjamin Franklin, printer, like the cover of an old book, its contents torn out and stripped of its lettering and guilding, lies here, food for worms. Yet the work itself shall not be lost; for it will, as he believed, appear once more in a new and more beatiful edition, corrected and amended by the Author.” (This is the eulogy he wrote for himself)

    -James Madison

    “I have sometimes thought there could not be a stronger testimony in favor of religion or against temporal enjoyments, even the most rational and manly, than for men who occupy the most honorable and gainful departments and [who] are rising in reputation and wealth, publicly to declare their unsatisfactoriness by becoming fervent advocates in the cause of Christ; and I wish you may give in your evidence in this way.”

    -George Washington

    “You do well to wish to learn our arts and ways of life, and above all, the religion of Jesus Christ. These will make you a greater and happier people than you are.”

    “I now make it my earnest prayer that God would… most graciously be pleased to dispose us all to do justice, to love mercy, and to demean ourselves with that charity, humility, and pacific temper of the mind which were the characteristics of the Divine Author of our blessed religion.”

    -Samuel Adams

    “I conceive we cannot better express ourselves than by humbly supplicating the Supreme Ruler of the world . . . that the confusions that are and have been among the nations may be overruled by the promoting and speedily bringing in the holy and happy period when the kingdoms of our Lord and Savior Jesus Christ may be everywhere established, and the people willingly bow to the scepter of Him who is the Prince of Peace.”

    Here’s the real kicker from the U.S. House Judiciary Committee in 1854:

    “Had the people, during the Revolution, had a suspicion of any attempt to war against Christianity, that Revolution would have been strangled in its cradle… In this age, there can be no substitute for Christianity… That was the religion of the founders of the republic and they expected it to remain the religion of their descendants.”

    I could go on and on with various evidence supporting that Christianity was and still is a key ingredient to the United States of America. If you want to read further what other men said, check out this website:

    This is my last point and I’ll close with a quote from a letter between Thomas Jefferson and Benjamin Rush, also a signer of the Dec. of Ind., concerning the 1st Amendment:

    “The clause of the Constitution which, while it secured the freedom of the press, covered also the freedom of religion, had given to the clergy a very favorite hope of obtaining an establishment of a particular form of Christianity through the United States; and as every sect believes its own form the true one, every one perhaps hoped for his own, but especially the Episcopalians and Congregationalists. The returning good sense of our country threatens abortion to their hopes and they believe that any portion of power confided to me will be exerted in opposition to their schemes. And they believe rightly.”

    You see it talks of the establishment of a particular form of Christianity, not of just any religion in the world like Islam, Hinduism, etc. which are not rooted in Christianity. The people wanted to establish different denominations within Christianity. It wasn’t intended to open up America to all forms of religion. I believe the men who wrote all of these documents would know what their intentions were in writing these amendments, and by looking at this quote, it appears that it was limited to different forms of Christianity, i.e.- Baptist, Presbyterian, Episcopal, etc.