Recently, I sat as a guest at a luncheon with a couple at Cafe Pacific who are clearly affluent… live in Lakewood but are building in the Park Cities (where else?).

(FYI, to Marty’s wife—my dinner companion’s handbag cost an easy 35 grand, and THAT before recent dollar devaluations).

When I mentioned eating in Oak Cliff~~~ as I do constantly is myriad places, the 30-something husband…a self-professed ‘Dallas native’ (yes they exist but he was a scary Gen-X prototype) snorted, ‘What kind of heat do you pack when you go there?’ He went on to tell me that he once ‘got lost on Davis’ street (a main street and route to Bishop Arts as well as the street of foodie dreams housing the original Gloria’s and Norma’s but hey…he was ‘lost) and said he ‘barely got home with (my) life’. Proving that to him, ignorance of Dallas is bliss. To me, he and his wife were both simply ignorant. Their loss.

Those of us who live in Oak Cliff prefer to keep Dallas’ best-kept secret to ourselves, thank you.

look, man, i’m a yankee that’s lived in oak cliff for 2.5 years now and i have to tell yous that the neighborhood i grew up in in Philadelphia, Pennsylvania, which wasn’t bad at all and 90% white in the ’70s and ’80s, makes oak cliff look like highland park

seriously i truly believe that the bad reputation the OC gets/has is simply borne out of people’s racist fears. racist fears that have no reason to persist here in the 21st century, as many of us get set to vote for the first viable non-white male for POTUS

that’s right, i said it. you’re afraid of the OC because deep down (or maybe not so deep down) you’re afraid of brown and black people for reasons that are only known to you. and those fears simply aren’t grounded in facts but myths and hearsay and what have you

yes, numerous cars were burned recently in south dallas and the OC, but tell me crime doesn’t happened in HP or Plano and i’ll tell you you’re only lying to yourself to protect your prejudices

now please tell me how ignornant i am, as i enjoy a good argument, tell me what i’m overlooking by living with my door unlocked in the OC

Amanda, appreciate your well drawn point. But let’s talk the totality of Oak Cliff (when did the term ‘the OC’ catch hold… ‘The Oak Cliff’? But I digress.) A larger point is that the entirety of Oak Cliff from ‘DT’ Oak Cliff to far West OC stretching to Duncanville to South Oak Cliff reaching all the way to I-45 and I-20….is a gigantic stretch of massive proportions. For any of us to equate their specific experience in , say, Winnetka Heights or some other area-specific experience, as being representative of the universal experience in OC is no more realistic than someone like me who lives in ‘TD’ (The Dallas), who lives 11 miles from NorthPark being lumped into that demographic.

Meanwhile, I drive all over Oak Cliff and to this day, it is still a case of ongoing discovery. I love exploring that amazing part of this city.

Me? I live in Southeast Dallas which is a whole other set of myths and urban legends sautéd in past experiences dating to the 1980s-90s by those who understandably left too soon (or too late).

My wife and I have lived in the Cliff for 8 years now, moving from Plano. I can tell you honestly that I wouldn’t live anywhere else. We’re in a small neighborhood called Ravinia Heights, with two small children, and AMAZING neighbors. I ride my bike througout the OC (yes it’s okay to call it that…Orange County has the same moniker), including up and down Davis, and Jefferson. Someone being scared to drive around the backroads of Davis is just being overly sensitive. I’ll happily invite them over and walk up and down each and every side street. My only worry is a stray dog on a few occasions.

Techincally, I feel the boundry of what we call Oak Cliff is far to great of an area. It was formerly it’s own incorporated city which was annexed by Dallas in 1903. What was Oak Cliff is approximately the area bounded by Twelfth Street on the South, Colorado Boulevard on the North, Hampton on the West, and I-35 on the East. To me, anything below Illinois should be considered South Dallas, because it’s more of a newish suburban area (like North Dallas), where Oak Cliff is more in line with an older inner city neighborhood (like Lakewood). I realize it’s a minor detail, but I’m a bit of a history buff and prefer keeping with T.L. Marsalis’ original 1887 plat.

If this article is to serve as an endorsement of being a Cliff Dweller, I am totally perplexed by the description of the bridge scene in Kidd Springs park. Sounds like someone from Chango Botanica was day tripping.

And the Harvard Square comparison is a bit of a streeeetch. I never saw dreadlocked drummers in the People’s Reublic.

Big ups to Kiestwood Estates!

Okay, Jason: Dallas native Rawlins history lessons if indeed you are ‘a history buff’. The original Marsalis plats are interesting historically but a ton happened afterwards. No less than North Dallas (where I went to High School) originally being Uptown.

As for the heinous issue of the term ‘South Dallas’: ‘South Dallas’ is a very specific name for a part of Dallas…the oldest part as a matter of fact, and arguably most historic in many ways.. To say ‘South Dallas’ is not to refer to something ’south’ of someplace else; it is a very specific name for a very old part of historic Dallas.

South Dallas: East of the Trinity and I-45, south of downtown and west of the Trinity Forest and north of I-175. We don’t get to decide where things are; they are.

Oak Cliff’s original boundaries not withstanding, what I refer to as OC is correct. BUT the name of a SPECIFIC part of the city is also ‘South Oak Cliff’. (Hence the High School by that same name?) That is south and east of I-35, north of I-20, west on I-45. So the Zoo is in, voila, South Oak Cliff. South/West of Hampton/Illinois is West Oak Cliff. By that same token, as the area expanded throughout the 21rst century, Ravina Heights is in what I would refer to currently as North Oak Cliff. Kessler Park and Stevens Park sought that distinction many decades ago. At that time, I was IN the love in the OC. I am still in love WITH the OC.

Final PS: To JIm’s point to jason: It would be a little, shall we say, awkward (and incorrect) to tell the Belmont Hotel and Ft. Worth Avenue…all or which are north of I-30, that they are not in Oak Cliff. OC extends on towards Singleton. North of that, welcome to ‘West Dallas’.

I’ve lived in the Cliff for 14 years, currently in El Tivoli. I wouldn’t live anywhere else, either. As an acquaintance once said, “Oak Cliff - it’s not for everybody, thank god.” If I want to leave my lawn and shrubs a little bushy for the benefit of the birds, lizards, bugs, etc., so be it - this ain’t Plano. My neighbors are black, brown, gay, straight, singles, families, old, young… and that’s the way we like it in the Cliff. (And I can’t stand “the OC” designation - sorry.) Hopefully, we’ll be able to keep what we love about the place as all the changes take place around us…

Jim, it depends on what year you’re referring to in regards to your OC boundaries. Check the Texas Handbook online. I-35E ate up most of Thirteenth Street which was the Southern most boundary. Even where I live technically would be just outside the bounds of the orignal plat. Here’s what the handbook states:

“Oak Cliff was on the south bank of the Trinity River two miles south of downtown Dallas in central Dallas County. The original township was in the area bordered by Colorado Boulevard, Cliff Street, and Thirteenth Street.”

Rawlins, I understand that it would be nice to keep the old directional naming system specific to the original boundaries, but that has already dissolved in the other areas as you stated. you proved the point with the “Uptown, was North Dallas” response.

Also, historically speaking, what you’re calling “South Oak Cliff”, I would call “Freedman’s Town”. The zoo, sure, but only a a small part. Around Opera street was about where I would bound the OC (and so would Marsalis), which hits the western edge of the zoo.

Anything occuring after the annexation should not be considered Oak Cliff, but Dallas. Give it any name you like, Southern-most Dallas, Far South Dallas, but Dallas. Or, since, yes I am a history buff, why not call the South West area Wheatland or Sprowl’s Corner.

To prove my point, I’m sure you know there was a clause in the original annexation that stated THE OC could break apart from Dallas and re-incorporate if the community leaders didn’t feel the combination jived well. That was brought up again recently when lack of city services in Oak Cliff became an issue, and if that secession occurred (though highly unlikely), where do you think Dallas would ultimately draw the boundaries? In other words, what would become the city of Oak Cliff? My assumption is that they’re going to only give back the land from 1903, and not risk losing any other tax base.

I could be wrong, but regardless, I love a good debate.

Jason, I did not just come up with this. I grew up here and was never territorial. I have always been interested in this entire city rather than parts of it. And I have been actively writing about Dallas for decades one way or another. (Believe me, the North Dallas High/ Uptown example of the High School once having been in ‘North Dallas’ vastly predated me. PS: The ‘Uptown’ name appeared in the 90s.)

There is a huge difference between the ‘North’ part of a city being re-drawn as a city moves north and grows over what were once fields of cotton. But trust me, I am quite used to hearing very nice and thoughtful people moving to Dallas and treating entire parts of the city as if it is a frontier to be named according to what neighbors and realtors (who also moved here) decide. I understand your on-paper good point about what was annexed after Oak Cliff should be ‘Dallas’ and it is…It is the uniquely retained name of Oak Cliff part of Dallas. Oak Cliff is a huge part of Dallas and it has neighborhoods. It is not a neighborhood in Dallas, but of course, a sector. Just as South Dallas is.

Meanwhile, people who went to Sunset and South Oak Cliff High Schools grew up and live in Oak Cliff no less than Adamson.

As many parts of Oak Cliff have become loved by many new and longtime residents, and historical pride takes hold (thank God) the perceived boundaries seem to be changed according to what is and isn’t desired. But hey, if you moved there and are told by others who moved there or whoever that you are not in South Oak Cliff when you are on Illinois near I-45, when you are at Stelle’s cones on W. Clarendon, (in Far West Oak Cliff when you are at Southwest Mall or hiking as I do in the park at Boulder Park Trail. @ Red Bird and I-67?), certainly when you are drinking at the Belmont, then suit yourself. Cheers.

I’ve lived 14 years in Oak Cliff, the last ten in one of the more “transitional” neighborhoods and I’ve not had near the problems I would have living in other parts of the city. My sister-in-law who by all accounts lives in one of the nicer neighborhoods of Lakewood near White Rock (you know, the streets with “-shore” in their names) has had three guests’ cars broken into in the past 18 months. And why anyone would live anywhere near Greenville Avenue or the M Streets with the new zero-lot-line atrocities and the inevitability of a drunk person urinating in your garden is beyond my comprehension.

So what if my neighbors don’t have the nicest, newest cars cars or granite countertops or are able spend tens of thousands of dollars on IVF to populate this city with more Rileys and Kayleighs and Landons and Connors. There are more important things in life.

Oak Cliff is rich in warm, engaging people of all walks of life. That’s a resource money can’t buy.

rosemont elementary is supposed to be a good school, but i don’t have kids…yet

Jason - I was just saying there’s more Oak Cliff now than what was originally part of the Marsailes plan. You can’t just call Old Oak Cliff Oak Cliff. Rawlins - I always thought Ft. Worth Ave was the boarder to West Dallas, Singleton being West Dallas’ main street. The Belmont and Company would rather say they were in Oak Cliff than West Dallas, though. Evidence? Clyde Barrow is buried off Ft. Worth Ave. Can’t get more West Dallas than that.

That’s all North Oak Cliff, which is much too crowded and fabulous for me these days. I live on three wooded Oak Cliff acres far south of there and I hope we never get as fabulous as NoOC.

My parents, my grandparents and I are all from Oak Cliff. I treasure the perception that Oak Cliff is not safe. We’ve missed a few of those archtectural purges that Dallas is famous for because of it. Hopefully, it will continue to keep a flood of nasty, three story, poorly built, rectangle condominiums at bay at little while longer It seems though that the only thing that ever puts the breaks on out of control development here is a national financial crisis…thanks George.

I for one don’t long for the day where all those falling below a certain yearly salary are priced further away from the city center like they have been in Oak Lawn and Uptown. Those two areas continue to lose all that made them interesting initially. It’s the trees, topography, architecture and ability of all of the diverse people that live in Oak Cliff to get along with each other that makes us different from those that choose to live their lives in the bubble. But hey, that’s a choice, just let us have our choice.